Driving an electric reality

Charlie is head of strategy at KPMG and leads their 2030 Mobility team. He works with car manufactures, cities and Governments to envisage and plan a world where electric vehicles (EV’s) are the hub of an interconnected autonomous and low emissions transport system.

Jeremy [00:00:26].Hello and welcome to Saving Tomorrows Planet. This is a podcast that is investigating who is doing what, and what can you do to help save our planet. We are going around the world finding people who are actually doing things and not just talking about it. At the end of each conversation we are also asking for tips and tricks that all of us an easily adopt today to make a difference. Though millions of small steps can lead to giant leaps, we are also speaking to leaders and individuals in companies who are truly innovating to reduce the way we are emitting greenhouse gases by our actions. I have little faith in governments to solve this titanic issue as they lack the backbone to issue anything else other than far off goals, and even within companies  I have found that it is down to strong-willed, determined individuals to challenge indifference and have a vision for change. [0.0s]

Jeremy [00:00:26]1 Today I am speaking to Charlie Simpson who is a partner on the  KPMG global strategy group and head of the mobility initiative working with the automotive industry to spearhead electric vehicles, or EV’s as they are called, and autonomous electric vehicles. we meet at his offices in Canary Wharf in the East end of London and I want to start with understanding the relative size of emissions from motor vehicles versus other sources of global warming emissions[0.0s]

[00:01:28] [0.0s]

Charlie [00:01:28]We think about the carbon footprints of transport. We’re not just talking about personal vehicles. Critically, we’re talking about freight lorries, logistics, marine. The carbon footprint from bunker oil in the marine sector is massive and increasingly we’re starting to see particularly the electrification of aircraft coming onto the agenda. So whilst whilst the focus of what we’re doing at the moment has been around the automotive industry, if we look at the global carbon footprints of transport, you need to take that big of you the on board. [34.9s]

Jeremy [00:02:03]Well, I’m glad to hear you talking about air travel, because I’m always shocked every time I get in a plane and I still am and hearing the tons and tons of fuel that I put on the plane and it’s been sort of spread around the planet. So perhaps we can come to that then in the constellation. So to that point then, how do cause. Well it’s a transport then rank in terms of the contribution to global warming. [20.9s]

Charlie [00:02:25]Yeah. So some if you look at the global emission of greenhouse gases, slightly surprisingly transport probably the fourth biggest sector. So if you go by declining order of importance at about 25 percent of global carbon emissions is actually production of energy heat production largely for domestic applications. So that’s about 25 percent of total output. Second is agriculture. And that’s that’s both methane emissions from livestock, but also vehicle vehicles and usage within agricultural applications. Industry broadly is about 21 percent. And transport comes in at 14. [38.1s]

Jeremy [00:03:41]So obviously we’re all seeing in the media and perhaps some of us even own an electric vehicle or we’re getting into hybrids, perhaps. Could you from your perspective, because you’re closer to the industry and you’re sending us just tell us what is the progress is actually being made with electric cars and electric vehicles even? Yes, it’s interesting. It’s a mixed global picture. [18.6s]

Charlie [00:04:12]interestingly, figures from September, overall car sales are down in the UK, diesels off by about 20 percent interest in me, petrol is up. But the big growth story, albeit from a very small base, is electric vehicles. Now we’re still only talking about three sixty point eighty three per cent of new car sales, but that’s more than doubled on a like for like basis in the last year. [22.4s]

Charlie [00:04:34]So the growth trajectory is high. [1.4s]

Transport

Charlie [00:04:49]The next year’s going to be particularly interesting because electric vehicles will start counting as parts of European fleets emissions targets. So a large number of the. The traditional Western manufacturers have been holding back supply, which will be released to the market next year. [17.8s]

Jeremy [00:05:07]2. THIS IS SOMETHING I HAVE NOT HEARD ABOUT BEFORE AND SOUNDS LIKE THE CAR MANUFACTURERS HAVE BEEN MANIPULATING THE SUPPLY OF ELECTRIC CARS. I WANT TO KNOW MORE..SO. [0.0s]

Charlie [00:05:17]On the back of the diesel scandal. There are now some fairly stringent European targets for all car manufacturers. As to the average emission across all of their production line. So clearly, if you’re, say, one of the big German carmakers and you’re producing relatively policing diesels at one end and electric vehicles the other, the measure is around your average units of carbon dioxide across your fleet. [29.9s]

Jeremy [00:05:47]3/ WHAT THAT MEANS OF COURSE IS THAT AS THE CAR MANUFACTURES RELEASE ELECTRIC CARS INTO THIER SALES SYSTEM. THEY REDUCE THE TOTAL POLLUTIOMN EFFECT OF THE NON ELECTRIC CARS AND ALLOW THE CAR COMPANIES TO HIT THEIR EMISSIONS TARGETS AND AVOID FINES NOW. [0.0s]

Charlie [00:05:48]Now, clearly is you bring electric vehicles into the mix that offset some of the more polluting vehicles at the top end. These measures are kicking in from 2020. And this is why the dynamic of supply and demand demand is rising pretty quickly. Supply has lagged. And one of the reasons supply has lagged is that the car companies want to release more electric vehicles into the market. As of next year, because, by the way, if they exceed these targets, there are significant financial fines,. [31.1s]

Jeremy [00:06:27]4. SO CLEARLY THE CAR COMPANIES WANT TO AVOID FINES. BUT THERE IS ANOTHER PRESSURE ON CAR COMPANIES TO ACCELERATE THE LAUNCH OF ELECTRIC CARS. SOME MAYORS OF CITIES ARE WANTING TO REDUCE CO2 EMISSIONS – WHAT IS THE IMAPCT OF THAT ON ACCELERATING A REDUCTION IN CAR EMISSIONS? [0.0s]

Charlie [00:06:33]There’s a big political play here. If you look at the city mayors in Madrid, Paris, London and Manchester. [7.9s]

Charlie [00:06:50]We’re now seeing in the big cities the first generation of young adults growing up, having grown up in a diesel environment that’s now showing up in lung health statistics and the costs coming through from an NHS point of view. In the UK, city mayors are now overtly standing on a clean up the air of our RCC campaign,. [19.6s]

Charlie [00:07:22]THe mayor of Paris announced that in time for I think the 2024 Olympics,. [4.2s]

Charlie [00:07:32]There will be no diesel and petrol within the periphery. Can Paris. [2.7s]

Jeremy [00:07:56]5. NOW WE HAVE DISCUSSED EUROPEAN CITIES BUT wHAT ARE THE CHINESE DOING AS WE KNOW THAT BEIJING HAS TERRIBLE POLLUTION. AND CHINA IS BOTH BUILDING COAL POWERED POWER STATIONS AND AT THE SAME TIME INVESTING HEAVILY IN BATTERY TECHNOLOGY. SO IF THE CITY OF PARIS IS BANNING PETROL AND DIESEL VEHICLES BY 2024 WHEN WILL CHINA ACHIEVE THE SAME. [0.0s]

Charlie [00:08:01]China is going to be achieving by probably the end of 2021. [3.0s]

Charlie [00:08:13]When they decide to make technology shifts, they go large, they go top down and they drive it through. So if you look at the switch from black and white TV, colour TV. China did that within two years. In the West, that’s 10 years. [15.9s]

Charlie [00:08:32]So what when China decides to go TV, coming back to the geo politics, they’re going big, they’re going quick and they’re not messing around. [6.4s]

Jeremy [00:08:38]6. SO IF CHINA IS GOING SO FAST AND GOING BIG, AS CHARLIE CALLS IT, THERE SHOULD BE SOME BENEFIT ON PRICING OF ELECTRIC CARS FOR US IN THE WEST, KNOWING HOW MUCH CHEAPER CHINESE PRODUCTS CAN BE. [0.0s]

Charlie [00:08:49]From a consumer point of view. It’s interesting in in Shanghai and the big Chinese cities now mixed here. Electric vehicles are now available to the mass population for about fifteen thousand dollars. That’s the price point, which we are seeing the big Chinese manufacturers, the likes of B, Y, D, Geely, Psych, Great Wall, Neo. They will be launching mid tier electric vehicles into European markets at that 15 20 thousand euro strike. Dollar price points. That’s the points at which this moves from premium, relatively niche products into the mass market. And that’s what we’re going to be seeing over the next couple of years. [42.8s]

Jeremy [00:09:32]I know you’re looking at buying a car. I mean, the market. And I just think one of the things we will see about what customers have on me, the advice that we’re giving. He’s staring that we can give to people in the market. They put a diesel vehicle, as I do it, and I think Chelsea truck. But there’s a concern around that when to invest or when to make that investment. I think you’ve talked a little bit about. But also around things such as hang challenging my age, is now a good time to make that transition. Is it a hybrid transition or therefore electric? What’s your bundle of questions in there? [40.1s]

Jeremy [00:10:13]7. NOW MANY PEOPLE LISTENING WILL BE ASKING THEMSELVES SHOIULD THEY BUY A HYBRID?, CAN THEY AFFORD AN ELECTRIC CAR?, WHEN WILL PRICES BE COMING DOWN? – WHAT ADVICE WOULD CHARLIE GIVE SOMEONE IN THE MARKET FOR BUYING A CAR [0.0s]

Charlie [00:10:15]personally probably wouldn’t be going hybrid. That looks to me a dead end technology for a whole bunch of price technology. Technological reasons we don’t need to go into now. I’d be I’d be thinking very carefully middle of 2020, because that’s the points at which we will be seeing the volume of new product coming to markets. Not now. If your if you’re in the Tesla market, Tesla 3 is a phenomenal product, but it’s clearly still a premium premium product. [31.6s]

Jeremy [00:11:02]8. NOW OF COURSE ACCESS TO CHARGING POINTS WILL BE THE BIG CONCERN FOR PEOPLE HOWEVER THE STATISTICS SHOW MOST JOURNEYS PEOPLE MAKE ARE ONLY A FEW MILES – SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLES IN TOWNS VS THE COUNTRYSIDE, BUT THE QUESTION IS MORE PROFOUND THAN THAT EVEN. [0.0s]

Charlie [00:11:02]I think the other thing we need to factor in here is the move away from individual ownership of vehicles towards this this thing which in the trade we call mobility is a solution, which is taxes on steroids or nuclearization of transport. The big one of the really interesting shifts is the way our kids and I’m speaking as a 50 something year old, my 19, 20 year old kids are growing up with the Uber app on their phones. When we grow up getting car keys. That was our big break for freedom. Now it’s do I have a smartphone with a new app ideally linked to mom or dad’s credit card? This this shift we’re seeing in the order of a 6 percent drop off per year in applications for driving licences in the UK. So you caveat relatively developed markets, but you run that number through into the mid 20 20s. That’s in the order of a 20 per cent or so drop off in demand for new vehicles. Now, interestingly, this isn’t because people want to travel less, in fact, potentially potentially the opposite. In the short term, what this does imply is a whole knock on effect for the kind of vehicles that the car companies produce. So I think part of this is decoupling the I own an individual vehicle. And what does that look like to what makes sense in Uber style on demand fleets? [81.0s]

Jeremy [00:12:23]9. THIS POINT OF A SHIFT FROM OWNING YOUR OWN CAR TO CALLING ONE ON DEMAND VIA THE FRICTIONLESS APP OF UBER AND THE LIKE RAISES THE QUESTION. WHAT SORT OF CARS ARE MINICAB AND UBER DRIVERS BUYING. IN FACT THE REASON FOR TODAYS DISCUSSION WAS PROMOTED NOT JUST BECAUSE OF THE OBVIOUS QUESTIONS AROUND POLLUTION, BUT ALSO BECAUSE OF AN INCIDENT THE OTHER DAY. LET ME TELL YOU MORE. I HAD MY LOCAL MINICAB COMPANY CALLED ROADRUNNERS PICK ME UP FROM GATWICK AND I WAS DRIVEN HOME IN A TESLA. IT WAS NOT JUST ANY TESLA, IT WAS A TESLA WITH 200K MILES ON THE CLOCK. I DIDNT THINK THEIR BATTERIES LASTED THAT LONG. I WANTED TO KNOW MORE AND IF YOU LISTEN TO EPISODE 3 OF THIS SERIES OF 3 PODCAST FEATURES ON ELECTRIC CARS YOU WILL HEAR ME TALK TO THE OPERATIONS DIRECTOR MUZ A FFAR HUSSAIN OF ROAD RUNNER MINICABS  IN THIER OFFICES IN REDHILL JUST OFF THE M25 TO ASK, AMONGST OTHER THINGS, WHY HE’S  BOUGHT SUCH AN EXPENSIVE CAR. [0.1s]

[00:13:52]10. RETURNING TO CHARLIE. I HAVE AN ONGOING BET WITH PEOPLE I MEET WHO ARE INTERESTED IN AUTONOMOUS VEHICALS. WE NEED TO DISUSS AUTONOMOUS VEHCILES BECAUSE ALONGSIDE THE NEW UBER ECONOMY WHERE CAR OWNERSHIP DECLINES, WE ALSO HAVE TRANSPORTATION COMPANIES SEEKING TO REDUCE THEIR SALARY COSTS BY REMOVING DRIVERS AND GETTING MORE OUT OF EACH VEHICLE BY RUNNING THEM 24/7 WHICH AUTONOMOUS VEHICLES WILL DO. [0.0s]

Charlie [00:13:54]the technology embedded within Teslas and some of the other top end vehicles at the moment, [4.7s] [00:14:03]These vehicles in many applications can do large chunks of the driving task on their own. Are they fully autonomous? No. Are they autonomy enabled? Absolutely. What we’re seeing already is that within campus type applications. Be at Airports, University, campus industrial park, where vehicles are operating on fairly well controlled, predictable routes. So if you like digital train tracks, autonomous pods will be with us in the next two to three years. And if you look at what’s going on in Dubai airports, it’s probably sooner than last. The step from that to, if you like, allowing fully a V vehicles wild and the unpredictable city streets were probably still 10 or so years out. Having said that, there are currently industry bodies and projects going on to get the first fleets of fully autonomous vehicles licenced in London within the next two to three years. [61.7s]

Jeremy [00:15:05]11. SO COMING BACK TO MY BET. I ASK FRIENDS AND PEOPLE SUCH AS CHARLIE HOW MANY YEARS THEY THINK IT WILL BE BEFORE I CAN BE TAKEN BACK HOME FROM A RESTAURANT IN AN AUTONOMOUS CAR. MOST PEOPLE SAY IT WILL TAKE 1O YEARS, SOME SAY 5 YEARS WHILE I BELIEVE WITHIN THE NEXT 3 YEARS – FOR ME NOW, THE ONLY BARRIER IS GOVERNEMENT REGULATION AND INSURANCE COMPANY RULES RELATING TO ACCIDENT BLAME. I HAVE SEEN INCREDIBLE AI TECHNOLOGY AT MERCEDES WHERE THEIR CARS CAN SEE EVERYTHING IN A STREET MORE RELIABLY, MORE QUICKLY AND MORE CONSISTENTLY THAN HUMANS CAN. BUT CHARLIE THINKS THERE IS ANOTHER BARRIER SO LETS HEAR WHAT HE SAYS.[0.0s]

Charlie [00:15:55]I think that might be it’s hard, aggressive, but interesting. Not not for the reasons you outlined. The core technology is probably there. The piece that isn’t is the regulatory framework and is consumer asked human acceptance. One of the really interesting analogies here. In some senses would back in the days of the guy with the red flag walking ahead of the early steam train and steam vehicle. Now, in retrospect, that was clearly not needed, but that was in response to consumer comfort with the technology. And to an extent, regulation technology will run far ahead of those two. I think you or your friends are putting it four to five year timescale on it, probably in the money. [42.3s]

Jeremy [00:16:38]Yeah, well, I’m going to win the. By the way, would you like to take the bet with me? [2.7s]

Charlie [00:16:41]I’ll take the stage. We’re shaking on this thing. I’m going forwards the final divide. And I’m going to tell you, I think we’ll find it hard to name the bar headings. [7.1s]

Charlie [00:17:44]Well, this is one of the interesting counterpoints. If you look at the the number of people we kill or injure on the UK roads and I can’t quite remember the UK stop,. [8.0s]

Charlie [00:17:54]A couple of jumbo jet of the year. The predominant cause is human inattention. We’re mucking around with our smartphones or eyes of failing law reaction. Times aren’t slow quick enough in a in an Eevee enabled vehicle. Even today, where we have allies are array constantly scanning 360 degrees with a reaction time and a fraction of my poor eyesight and my poor reaction. Everything else being equal. What? Where would you place your safety money? But but I think you rices are acceptance now journey from the transition to realising that we’re actually really poor drivers and technology and all this with all of those arrays in place, see more, react quicker, provide a safer network. [49.1s]

Charlie [00:19:05]If you look at the analogies in the in the airline industry, the average flight time on a transatlantic flight, human pilots intervention is now absolutely the the minority relative. Two computer controlled flights effectively that that’s the direction you travel. [20.2s]

Jeremy [00:19:59]12..SURPRISINGLY IT  SEEMS THAT THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY IS AHEAD OF GROUND VEHICLES FOR CREATING ALMOST COMPLETLY AUTONOMOUS TRANSPORTATION BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO COORDINATE DIFFERENT PARTIES. CHARLIE THINKS THIS IS MUCH TOUGHER AND A REAL BARRIER FOR CARS AND LORRIES[0.1s]

Charlie [00:20:01]it’s actually very easy to paint this utopian picture in 20, 15 years time where it’s all playing green, smart, connected, efficient. The that’s the easy bit. How the hell we get from where we are today. It’s not because this implies a degree of coordination between the car sector, the technology sector, insurance, energy infrastructure and by the way, a common road map between public and private sector. We are notoriously bad at that. [30.8s]

Jeremy [00:20:32]13. SO CRACKING THE ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUE REQUIRES STRONG COORDINATED LEADERSHIP IF NOT DICTATORSHIP AND WHERE DO WE SEE THAT POSSIBILITY?. [0.1s]

Charlie [00:20:36]when the Chinese Central Communist Party decide to do something, they tend not to ask too many questions in terms of who’d like to do what and what competing interests there are. [9.1s] [00:21:13]If you’re doing it at scale, the Chinese are with that degree of political will and ability to coordinate the different parts of the jigsaw. It’s very hard to see how the West responds in scale in that level of coordinated response. [15.9s]

Jeremy [00:21:30]So it’s either one or one of things that I guess could happen. Does the thinking because it’s all about sort of almost piercing through the inertia is either you get a stake in America like California that has the power to regulate on its own behalf and has the interest to do it. Or you’re mentioning perhaps that a man or perhaps we have someone like Scotland, Wales that’s got enough autonomy and they do seem to be ahead in some regulation that they actually say, well, we’re just gonna go for it because we want to be first and we can be first. I’m going to pronto. [25.7s]

Charlie [00:21:57]I think that’s absolutely right. I mean, politics increasingly plays a part. What’s quite interesting is when you take the lid off all of this aligning regulations, it’s quite a practical level because in integrating what we do on our roads, on private vehicles with taxi fleets, with buses and trains, requires on picking 50 years worth of legislation around things like integrated ticketing. Now, anyone who’s tried to travel across the UK and comes across the fiendishly complex ticketing arrangements purely on UK trains, when you start moving to a model of all of this links together. There are some pretty formidable challenges to overcome. [43.8s]

Charlie [00:22:53]It is coming from both angles for probably different reasons. I mean, one of the really interesting trends here is this aggregation model who’s bringing all of these services together. Now, clearly the car companies are saying, well, we’re in the business of building things on wheels and aggregating services. Why can’t we? As you can come up with a long list of reasons why they don’t have the right capability, including things like the balance sheet strength. So if we’re moving away from my vehicle, so I access capacity from a fleece and this is either as an individual or a business. One interesting question is, Will, who’s going to be owning these big fleets of vehicles? Who’s going to be licencing them now? It could be a city. Well, the city says if you’re going to run things around our territory, they’re either. Quasar is state owned or at least licenced to big fleet providers and so will like. He’s got the balance sheet strength to own these fleets and lease capacity over a long period of time. It’s not the car companies. It might be the banks. It could well be sovereign wealth funds, all the big Canadian pension funds. He say we invest in infrastructure to generate returns over a long period of time. So this not not only how does the system work, but who owns the assets. Is a really interesting question. [86.0s]

Jeremy [00:24:38]We don’t hear anything from this. But bouncing off what you’re saying is the car hire companies. So what are they up to? Because if it’s about fleet ownership on scale, you might say this. [9.0s]

Charlie [00:24:48]Is a very good point. If you look at the ingredients or pieces of the jigsaw required to succeed in this world’s service, Europe car and the like are already in parts of this business. So without going into hell, they’re doing a level of thinking. That’s good to hear. Yeah. If you’re putting money on who are going to be important players [22.9s] 

Jeremy [00:25:55]14. CHANGING EMPHASIS, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT THE END TO END ENERGY CONSUMPTION IS FOR ELECTRIC CARS BECAUSE OF COURSE WE NEED TO GENERATE THE POWER THAT IS USED TO CHARGE THE CAR, AND HOW CLEAN IS THAT VERSUS A PETROL ENGINE? [0.0s]

Charlie [00:25:56]Yeah. It us with lots of questions. There’s a large it’s depends statement. But if you look at a couple of examples, I mean, Norway is often held up as as a poster child for. The way they’re linking energy production to visas is unhelpful in many ways because it’s not cheap, clickable. Now, the interesting thing with Norway is that clearly they their sovereign wealth fund is buoyed by exporting oil. They have the benefits of having huge amounts of clean hydro energy, which they are using to power large chunks of the the fleets. I haven’t seen the latest stats this month, but in Norway, IVA sales are now certainly ahead of diesel. I’m thinking ahead of petrol as well. Now, this is driven clearly by large chunks of government subsidy. They’re in the privileged position of being able to see clean power, the increase in the fleets using hydro generated energy. Yes. Now, that clearly is the Norwegian story, far more challenging if you’re in Germany or France, depending on how you regard nuclear energy as parts of the mix. Second, interesting case study is where we are in the UK and the story here is one of the increase in offshore wind. Now, if you look at the last offshore wind auction, we’re now producing offshore wind at 40 quid a megawatt hour plays. Ninety two pounds fifty for Hinkley C nuclear power. Now, if we get the link between offshore wind, giga factories, scale battery storage, powering the fleets, the UK could move itself towards clean power. [111.3s]

Jeremy [00:27:48]15. THAT IS INTERESTING, BUT WHAT ABOUT CHINA THAT IS BOTH EXPANDING ELECTRIC VEHICLES BUT ALSO BUILDING COAL FIRED POWER STATIONS?. [0.0s]

Charlie [00:27:49]China is a more complex story because you say that burning more coal at the same time as they’re ramping up clean energy long, long term. China looks like it could well get to clean generated energy for evey fleets. We’re still probably talking five to 10 years away. [14.4s]

Jeremy [00:28:39]16. BOTH THE NEW CLEAN ENERGIES AND  ELECTRIC CARS NEED LITHIUM BATTERIES TO STORE ENERGY. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND IF THESE IS A FINITE OR INFINITE RESOURCE OF THE COMPONENTS TO THESE BATTERIES [0.0s]

Charlie [00:28:39]Yeah, there’s a caveat here, because we’re talking current generation of lithium ion batteries, but it’s the it’s the lithium is the cobalt and the cadmium [7.3s] 

Charlie [00:28:50]That’s a very interesting play here, particularly on the cobalt and the cadmium where countries such as Central African Republic are the main repositories. China has been locking up contracts for these raw materials on a 50 year basis. [15.4s]

Jeremy [00:29:06]17. THERE IS THE CHINESE BELT AND ROAD INTITIATIVE WHERE THE CHINESE ARE CREATING ACCESS ROUTES TO THE RAW MATERIAL SUPPLIES SO THAT THE DISTRIBUTION ROUTES ARE NOT CUT OFF [0.0s]

Charlie [00:29:07]And by the way, if you look at the geopolitical reason for the Belt and Road Initiative, one of the drivers is locking up the supply chain for battery raw materials in China for the next 20, 30 years, whereas these roads. [15.5s]

Charlie [00:29:24]the belt, the belts and road is one of the big Chinese economic political initiatives. Right. And this is really about connecting China globally into trade routes for a number of and again, partially it comes back to the oil dependency supply chain. [19.3s] 

Jeremy [00:30:08]18. AS WE TALK IT BECOMES INCREASINGLY CLEAR THAT ACCESS TO AND THE CREATION OF BATTERIES IS A GEOPOLITICAL THREAT AND ONE WHERE I HOPE THE WESTERN COUNTRIES AND COMPANIES ARE WELL PLACED TO SUCCEED. [0.1s]

Charlie [00:30:11]Bosch and Siemens recently announced that they were guessing out of the battery production. Industry now, we don’t necessarily know the full story here, but parts of this is they’ve decided that their abilities competes in battery production. Yeah, isn’t a viable strategy in the short term. The Chinese, some of the Japanese and some of the Korean battery manufacturers looked like they’ll be dominated [26.9s] 

Jeremy [00:30:42]We talk them into corporates. We’ve been to governments. What about some of the individuals and analysis people who are trying to also push this agenda forward? So what’s your view on greed and extinction rebellion or are they having a tipping point effect? Are they moving the agenda or is this a sideshow relative to what’s going on in the big geopolitical actions? [19.7s]

Charlie [00:31:03]I mean, the geopolitics, in my view, will still dominate. But the the politics short, certainly in Western Europe, the greater effect is having an impact. And again, you bring it down to a very practical level. City mayors in Western Europe will be standing on green agendas, of which transport is one of the key elements. Politically, this is becoming important. I think the other angle just coming about, some corporate points of view as we move from a phase of, if you like, greenwashing, where corporates are now taking their climate change agenda and an impact. It is now a top of House commercial level. And I think this business has been evolving. So that intersection between shifting consumer behaviour and. Now there’s still a caveat of price points and price elasticity still determines that whilst consumers will intuitively talk a good, great, good game on the green front, there is a point at which they will be able to prepare to pay for that. If you look at where cost curves are coming down, particularly for things like V, we’ll see that changing over the next three years or so. You overlay that with the politics and the corporate social responsibility agenda. I think those things are making an impact. [74.6s]